AVMABL

My thought is that if you get enough teams in the league to have two separate divisions, the idea might work. You would have a broader range of talent in those divisions. Instead of the same few teams with the same talent. Thus the experience at different levels for teams, might keep them in it. But I think you need the teams first.

I wasn't really concerned with getting the lower level teams to excel. I am, and always have been, more concerned with growing the league. And I think that's what could happen if we implemented something like this.

We've taken great steps in the past few years by adding a website, full player statistics, advertising on the radio, and even having our all star game at the local stadium. These have increased our exposure. And we do bring new players into the league each year. But many of them do not stick around. How many of last year's Dodgers and White Sox are returning this year? How many of the Giants from 3 years ago? I can't say for sure why they're not coming back... perhaps it's the economy, perhaps it's just life. Or perhaps it is the fact that they got the shit kicked out of them week in and week out, were made fun of consistently, and it just turned into an experience they didn't want to duplicate.

Obviously, I can't prove it, but I do think that the lack of competitiveness between the "haves" and the "have nots" is what's stifling our growth. I don't think that if we made this change, all of a sudden the lower teams would be better. And that's not even relevant to me. I do, however, think that they'd be much more competitive within that division because they'd be playing teams closer to their level. And they'd be much more likely to return the following season and bring their friends. Why? Because they're having FUN!

Many of these guys, myself included, don't care if they ever win a championship. Because honestly, it's a meaningless title. It's not like the champs can go brag to their friends or family or the world because the only people who give a shit who wins this league are the ones in it.

But they (we) DO want to have fun every Sunday. Just like they have fun playing softball. And it's not fun getting murdered week in and week out. I know, I've been there. On both sides. Those games suck for everyone involved, even the umpires.

But until a majority see the problem and decide to get together and make changes, nothing will happen. And we'll continue to spin our wheels as a league, going absolutely nowhere.

And I don't know, maybe that's what everyone wants. I'm just one guy sitting in front of a computer who cares a little too much about the future of this league. It's given me a chance to keep playing the game I love even though I was barely good enough to play in high school. But it's getting to be more and more of a chore each year working up the energy to play. Not because I'm getting older... Because my priorities are getting clearer. It's just not as much fun as it used to be.

Like I said before, the only way to make this a fair, competitive league is to have a open draft every year. No player is promised to any team until after a draft. That would give every team a chance to get some players who are above average... Kinda like another well ran organization. The little leagues.
However that is not why we play in this league. Like you said in your last post, and it really seems that you are kind of getting it. Not everyone is able to play, or practice everyday. That is the beauty of this league. One day a week (if you choose) you get to suit up with your friends, and play a game that we all grew up watching, and love (otherwise we wouldnt be paying to play while in our 20s, 30s, 40s, and who knows maybe 50s).
Furthermore, if people out there are really going to get so butt hurt, and are such complete a-holes that they are going to make fun of guys playing an ADULT league baseball game, then eff them. Who the hell are we? Nobody is getting paid to play here, nobody has any right to make fun of anyone honestly.
Whatever, this is getting old... this entire topic. If players are leaving the league, I am sure it may be the economy (you cant go wrong blaming that), priorities, and it hasnt been brought to my attention until now, but the clientele may be something to consider.

I totally agree with the idea of 2 Divisions the way described by Karma. It has been a problem for many years. Even though I'm not involved in the League anymore myself, I'm still around because my son plays. It is no fun to watch or play in a game where you're being blown out. Sure, some guys like the challenge..... for a few innings until the drubbing starts.

An "A" and "B" Division is an idea that should be implemented this year. See how it works, and go from there. I am certain it will be a success.

Also, the League can only grow to match field availability. The City of Lancaster has obviously gone back on their word to complete a new facility that would have added 2 more Adult Baseball Fields (that should have been done 3 years ago). They're more interested in putting a youth baseball facility in a heavy gang populated area of Lancaster. Great, huh?

Anyway, back to the AVMABL. Hopefully the President and Board will implement this idea this year. IT's a good one!!!

Wow. Didn't expect that one! Never thought Brockie and I would agree on anything. is the apocalypse near?

It's nice to see someone agrees with me, especially on the fact that it CAN be done this year. But alas, we seem to be in the minority.

If this decision were solely up to the president and the board, it probably would have been implemented. At least 2 of the 3 members were for it before it was presented to the managers 2 weeks ago. But apparently a majority of the managers expressed objections to the idea. So my impression is that it is no longer being considered.

Oh well. Maybe next year we'll figure out a way to even things out a bit.

As to the question of field availability: I think if we had the teams and were forced to find more fields, we'd do it. There are options out there. Teams in the PCBL drive all over the LA area to play. I see no reason we couldn't look at expanding our footprint, too. And we haven't really had the need to press the local high schools harder. I'm sure if we had to put pressure on them, we'd find a way to get it done. But as it stands now, we don't have to.

Just to reiterate...this should be implemented...THIS YEAR. Making something like this happen THIS YEAR is not impossible, it's not even hard. We are not a slow ass bureaucracy...we are a handful of men sitting at Vince's taking a democratic vote. I don't think you should give up on the idea because of some outspoken people Bobby.

As for the open draft ideas...they are great...but people like to play with their friends. I would like the open draft idea too...but I'm a manager and so I know I'm not going anywhere. I think we'd lose people if we asked (TOLD) them to play with other people.

I think there are more than enough teams to have two different divisions. I remember playing PONY with only FOUR teams per division. We have 12-14. There are more than enough teams!

This league isn't necessarily about helping teams or people excel...in all honesty, some of us aren't so good...some of us suck. BUT, this league IS about competition.

This is what I think..The newer teams don't want this implemented because of their egos. They want to compete with the big dogs. If you were to fight MMA...and your first opponent SMASHED YOUR FACE IN...you would NEVER come back, NEVER train, and NEVER try again. This is essentially what we do every year with new teams/players. EVERY LEAGUE, EVERY SPORT, EVERYTHING COMPETITIVE has divisions. Single A, Double A, Triple A...College...Highschool...everything has divisions.

Take your ego out and come back to reality. This is about what's best for the league, not how great of a team you THINK you have. I truly believe new managers are saying it's all cool, and they are ok with getting smashed because they believe they will be able to compete. But, when it's 100 outside, 3 in the afternoon, you're team is 1 for 13 at the plate, the score is 10 to 1, the other team is playing station to station, and you have to go back on the field...some opinions might change. If you are as great a team as you think you are, win the division and move up next year.

(I still want interleague play to happen though...maybe just one or two total games between the divisions to give upsets a chance.) I think this MUST be done for the better of the league. Look at last year's stats...4 teams were 10+ games out of first...WE ONLY PLAY 18 GAMES! 6 teams were under .400. Even last year's Dodgers make fun of last year's Dodgers!

This league is about COMPETITION. Pull your heads out...and be honest. This league really should split...

Then you guys need to do what you need to do to expand this league. Split it up in two divisions, and have the same teams still win every year, or the same teams in the playoffs every year. Those four teams will eventually get bored of playing eachother over and over again, or maybe they wont... I dont know, and furthermore I dont have the answer.
And as a new team I can personally say nobody on my team thinks we are the shit. We all share the same goal, and that is to have fun. Like I said before, 9 of the 12 have never played in this league, and havent played ball in a serioulsy long time, but we formed a team regardless... Just do what you guys need to do, lets get a schedule made, and play some ball. Enough with this arguing already.
On another note, sorry if I have seemed like a dick on here. I dont hold anything against anyone, and depending on who you talk to they may even say I am a nice guy.

Progress! I'm totally encouraged.


If Josh's twist on the idea will win it more support, then I'm all for it. I truly believe this is something that should happen this season. I just wish I'd been at the meeting (for many reasons... lol) so I could hear the objections. From what was reported to me, there was very little (if any) support, especially amongst the teams that would be in the lower division. Perhaps I misunderstood what was reported to me, because reps from two of the teams who would immediately benefit from the change of scenery are commenting here as though they want it implemented now...

Anyway, back to Josh's post, especially the inter-division play. Let's flesh this out a bit:

Let's assume there are 12 teams this year. I'm still hoping we get 14 again, but I haven't heard what's up with the Dodgers. And if the Dodgers are out, then it sounds like we'll lose someone else too. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen.

With 12 teams, that means 2 divisions of 6 teams. In an 18 game schedule, each team could play the 5 other teams in their own division 3 times and still have 3 games left over. Those 3 extra games could be against the other division. Works out pretty nicely to me...


How would you divide the divisions up in a 14 team scenario? Not sure how 7/7 would work with the scheduling. Perhaps 6/8, with the top division sticking with 6 and the lower division with 8? That would serve to keep the top division a little more "elite."

Just a thought. Interested to hear your ideas.

And to expand on your analogy with new teams and the MMA... In the MMA, you don't get to fight for a title right away. You have to work your way up. If a new team (or an existing team who's struggled for years) wants to play with the big boys, they should work their way up. That's how life works.

Side note: I'm going to send out a tweet today encouraging more of the league to get involved in this discussion. Have a feeling there are some twitter followers who don't know about the new site and forum yet.

Just a quick message about this. Cutting teams would not be the answer... especially for this year. If this was going to be implimented this year it needed to be worked out back in the beginning of the year. We have about a month until the first game.
I have come to the conclusion that people are not just satisfied with playing baseball every sunday, and that is fine. Its just a little late for this year in my book.
Lastly, if we are so concerned with the doyers then why doesnt someone give them a call? I thought I remembered seeing them throw in their down payment at the last meeting.

Cutting the teams has nothing to do with this idea. The two are mutually exclusive.

We can't have an uneven number of teams, so if the Dodgers don't pan out then we'd have to eliminate another team. That's why I was suggesting a plan for either scenario. Hopefully we can still have 14 teams AND implement this idea for this year. That would be the ideal situation.

I am sure that is the case, but about 90% of what I write on this board are things that guys on my team are worried about. For instance, and I can only speak for our teams case, but as I have said before 9 out of 12 guys on my team havent played ball in a long time. Since the beginning of this when we were told we had a team in this league guys have gone out and bought new equipment, gave money for the league which I have given to the league, and we already bought uniforms as well.
Like I said, I am responding for guys on my team who are seriously concerned after reading these posts about cutting a new team.
Regardless if this league seperation happens or not, if other teams have put in the same effort as us then there are going to be a lot of angry guys.

I agree. That would suck for you guys. Seems to me like your teams existence this season is dependent on the Dodgers coming through. Do you see it differently? Perhaps we should begin a separate thread for that discussion so its not confused with this issue...

Yeah I do see it differently. Those who have paid play period. Our team, though late has still done everything every other team has done which is gave not only a deposit, but half the league fees, and will have the other half by the 23rd. Not only that, but we have given our individual time to go out in the fields. As an Assistant President of the league you need to get with Wayne, and iron this shit out far before a season is about to begin. The fact that this is even a topic a month before the season is going to begin is besides me. Like I said, 9 guys who have never played in this league before are on my team, and you are putting a bad taste in all of their mouths before the season has even started. I thought you were all about expanding the league... Doesnt seem like it to me. I hope that you are able to come up with another solution before the league starts.

What am I missing here? Or not explaining? Sure, I'm the VP of the league (for now), but that doesn't mean I can magically create a 14th team. And like I said earlier, this discussion over whether to split the league into 2 divisions has nothing to do with whether we cut a team out or not. The split will work whether we have 12 or 14 teams.

Bottom line: if your team is team #13, and we can't find a 14th, then unfortunately team #13 has to go. Mathematically we must have an even number of teams. Odd numbers means doubleheaders, and the league voted overwhelmingly 2 years ago not to have doubleheaders again. So instead of putting it on Wayne and I (and Mike, too) to fix this situation, why not pressure the guy who's managing the Dodgers to make sure he puts a team together and gets his fees paid? We are playing with the cards we've been dealt.

What else can we do?

Seth,

I talked to Wayne a bit more this afternoon, and I guess he's pretty confident that the Dodgers will come through. As I told you when we spoke at the field, I was unaware they'd made their deposit, so this was probably a moot point all along.

That being said, I think your team's situation brings up a good point with regard to the stance against uneven numbers of teams. I personally am not against having doubleheaders, especially if it means we get to keep a team around. We've never had to eliminate a team before, and I think it would be a shame. Especially if that team had paid their fees and bought uniforms, like you guys did. Should the situation arise this year, I'd be all for doubleheaders again. If for no other reason than to be fair to you guys. And if we have to debate it at a meeting, that's the stance I will take.

Hopefully, though, it won't come to that! I'm all for 14 teams. Hell, I'm all for 20 teams if we can find em.

Now with regard to the original idea behind this whole thread, Wayne also told me that there was zero support for this idea at the league meeting earlier this month. I'm seeing some support here in this thread, but it sounds like that wasn't evident at the meeting. I don't want to seem like I'm pushing an agenda, so I'm not going to bother bringing it up anymore. I put the idea out there, it's been debated on both sides. If anyone wants it implemented, they can bring it up at the meeting on the 16th. You all know how I'll vote if given the chance, but I'm not going to stick my neck out for it any more than I already have. If people wanna do it, great. If not, that's fine too. I think it's at least worth a shot this season, but if I'm in the minority I'll shut up.

Good to see some of you guys out there today! Can't wait to get the season started, regardless of how we decide to draw the divisions.